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Trackings speed and ability to hit

Does anyone know of a spreadsheet/table that shows tracking speed of guns vs signature radius/traversal of target? So for example, if I am in a Thorax with Light Neutron Blaster II's targeting a frigate... under what traversal/range and above what sig radius would he need to be for the blasters to track properly and do damage?

IE, I'm in a Brutix with Hammerhead II's (so they are useless against... lets say a AB Malediction). What parameters would the Mal have to be within for me to damage him with my blasters.

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6 answers

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werner lucifer [ Editor ]

Why are you making my head itch?

I understand you are looking for a practical cheat sheet but I will start to explain how it all works and then try to work out something you are looking for. If I don't succead you will have the tools to do it yourself.

You say what now?

For turrets there is an actual formula for calculating hit chance that depends on stuff like sig radius etc. This formula will yield a number between 0 and 1, lets call this number ChanceToHit. For each shot you take the server will also randomize a number between 0 and 1, let's call this number SpinningWheel. If SpinningWheel is less than ChanceToHit than you will have a hit.

Give me that formula and I shall enslave the Minmatar once again!

Now let's take a look at the formula to see exactly what stuff it depends on and how they relate.

entire_formula

So it's basically 0.5^(Whole lot of stuff) meaning that when "Whole lot of stuff"=1 the hit chance is 0.5=50%. If it is less than 1 the hit chance goes up and if it is higher than 1 the hit chance goes down. Smaller numbers are better. Let's just draw a function 0.5^(Whole lot of stuff) to see what values will generate better hit values.

theresult

Now you hopefully got a feeling for what we are dealing with. 1 on the y-axis is 100% hit chance. As you see when WholeLotOfStuff=1 on the x-axis the hit chance is 0.5=50%. As we see numbers above approximately 1.8 is below 10% hit chance. So keeping the WholeLotOfStuff value low is important.

Simplify my life

You might not know this:

angular_velocity

So now go and change your overview settings to add angular velocity! We can also replace stuff in the original formula and write this instead:

angular_formula

Let's also assume we are within optimal range. The last bit of the formula is actually only about that, and if we are within optimal range it will be 0 and won't affect anything. So let's remove it.

simplified_formula

So now we have a formula that's easy to work with.

More simplification and a concrete example

Instead of "SignatureResolution/TargetSignatureRadius" we will write "SigRatio" and instead of "AngularVelocity/TurretTrackingSpeed" we will write "TrackRatio". So we basically have two numbers in the formula:

ratios

As an example if your sig res is 200 m and the targets sig rad is 400 m you have "sig res/sig rad"=200m/400m=0.5. The ang vel will vary but let's say we are flying steady at 0.005 rad/sec and that our turret tracking speed is 0.02 rad/sec then we will have "ang vel/turret track"= 0.005/0.02=0.25. The final result will be 0.5^((0.5*0.25)^2)=0.99 which is the same as a 99% hit chance.

Some conclusions!

The ratio of signature resolution and signature radius affects the final hit chance just as much as the ratio of angular velocity and turret tracking speed. Remember that we also want them to be as small numbers as possible.

Cheat sheet-implant in your brain

Now that we talked some about the foundations let's get groovy with some cheating. Remember that we have 2 ratios "sig res/sig rad" and "ang vel/turret track" that we called SigRatio and TrackRatio. Because we are multiplying these two they will effect each other (well duh). If SigRatio is 0.5 and TrackRatio is 2 we will have 2*0.5=1 that you hopefully remember is a 0.5^(1^2)=50% hit chance. So if you quickly calculate the SigRatio in your head for a new enemy you can continuously calculate the angular velocity and tracking speed ratio. Then you will just multiply the both of them and check the number against the graph with WholeLotOfStuff I drew before. I will post it again. A better idea is just to remember some over or under approximations. Check out the tables below for that (where I call "WholeLotOfStuff" "x" instead). It seems as you will excel at doing maths in your head.

theresult

alt text

alt text

Understanding is love, ignorance is Minmatar hobos eating your dead frozen flesh

Many people seem to believe that if the angular velocity is higher than the tracking speed you will not hit. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE. Look at the previous example just above. You have a TrackRatio of 2. This means that the angular velocity is twice that of the turret tracking speed (e.g ang vel/track speed=0.04/0.02=2). Still you have a 50% hit chance. How come? If you multiply 2 with 0.5 it's 1. You multiply the TrackRatio with the SigRatio so they both have an equal effect on the ChanceToHit. If you have an angular velocity 4 times your tracking speed it's still no problem if your sig res is 1/4 of the targets sig radius because 4*0.25=1 which is still a 50% hit chance. It's very good to keep in mind what number you need to multiply that other with to get 1 so that you know when you are above 50% hit chance.

Cheat sheet picture, also for getting a feeling of it

This is the graphs of 0.5^((SigRatio*TrackRatio)^2). This is a graph with 2 variables and that would normally generate a 3D-graph. But because 3D-graphs are as complicated as pirate scum to read we made it into a contour graph. Let's say you calculate the two ratios as in the earlier "concrete example". Then we have TrackRatio=0.25 and SigRatio=0.5. Just pick an axis and take find either 0.25 or 0.5. Then take the number you have left and track it on the other axis. Now see where the two numbers intersect. Now take a look at the curved lines. The curved line 0.95 has 95% hit chance and everything to the left and under that line or of the same colour is above 95% hit chance. Our example intersection landed just to the right of the 0.99 line so it's approximately a 99% hit chance which is consistent with out "concrete example"-calculation!

Note that you can choose either one of the values and axes to start with.

I will give you 2 contour graphs; one allowing larger values for the ratios.

smallvalues

alt text



Links

http://www.evegeek.com/tracking.php
Good for doing tracking-calcs in your browser
http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf
Good for understanding how tracking and other stuff works
EFT
With this software you can take specific fittings and calculate tracking and damage etc
EveHQ
The open source EFT that works even better.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/
Great site for doing calculations and graphs. Go there and input "plot 0.5^((a*b)^2), a=0...1, b=0...3" for the latest contour graphs I drew. Or play around with the other formulas above.



PS. Do use all info and pics in the post freely and please comment on false info and things you don't understand DS.

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ecaf ersa
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Wow, that’s some post there Werner! Looks good and managed to get the concepts in my head pretty well. +1 from me

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  • 1

mull [ Editor ]

You can use DPS graphs in EFT to do this pretty much.

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greatgold
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Yeah, I guess what I’m looking for is a cheat sheet that has something along the lines of: your using heavy neutron ii with xx ammo, thus you would have a 50% chance of hitting y ship type at your optimal if they are flying their max speed. I feel a summer project coming on…

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  • 1

alec grahm [ Editor ]

In my overview settings I have angular velocity as one of the columns displayed. I also know what the tracking speed of the guns that I'm using. This lets you do a quick over/under of do you have a reasonable chance of hitting the target (ignoring sig size).

The angular velocity is the key thing there and questions such as "can you track" depend more on the flight pattern than the velocity of the ship. Flying max speed in an orbit or perpendicular to your flight direction will give very different hit changes than flying directly at or away from you.

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redmage
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This is how the pros do it.

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  • 1

yuripup [ Editor ]

I don't know the way to hit is effected by tracking--I am not even sure the damage formula is out there for guns--but we can show you some basic stuff for theory crafting while you are not in game.

Firstly is the radian. I don't know about you, but I had never worked with them before. There are 2pi radians in a circle. 1 radian is an arc (the distance traveled on the circumferenceof a circle--part of an orbit) that is 1 radius long. On a circle of 1 unit radius, 1 unit of arc would be a radian and ~57 degrees. EVE wise 1 radian is what you would cover in 1 second at a speed equal to your orbital distance.

This makes your approximate traversal easy to work out. It is V/R where V is your velocity (speed) and d is the distance (radius) of your orbit.

An interceptor orbiting at 20,000m doing 5,000 m/s has a traversal of 5,000/20,000 = 5/20 = 1/4 = 0.250. This number isn't out the range of the possible number generated by cruiser pilots, particularly in cruiser with tracking bonuses.

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werner lucifer
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Transversal velocity is calculated with the speed relatively to the line connecting your two ships. If you and the target were flying directly towards or away from another your transverse speed would be 0 no matter how fast you’re going. If you flew 90 degrees perpendicular to the line connecting your two ships while the other ship was standing still your transverse speed would be your actual travel speed (if you both flew perpendicular to the line in opposite directions it would be the sum of your speed). Angular velocity is transversal/distance.

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